Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

van: www.kustvaartforum.com
Evert Sikkema
Berichten: 3399
Lid geworden op: 31 dec 2004 08:19
Locatie: Noord Holland

Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Evert Sikkema »

Nee, Peter, dat stond er niet bij, maar het zal wellicht te maken hebben gehad dat de bemanning het niet zag zitten om na Montreal weer de zee op te gaan. Misschien was in die beginphase van de oorlog ook nog niet duidelijk wat voor gevolgen dat zou hebben voor de scheepvaart. Je kon natuurlijk wel begrijpen dat terugkeer naar Nederland er niet in zat. Zal best heel veel verwarring geweest zijn zo in mei / juni 1940.

groeten
Evert Sikkema
As it tij ferrint, moat men de beakens fersette.


Gert Schouwstra
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Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Gert Schouwstra »

Ik heb de kranten even nagelezen:

International News Photo Bureau - July 7th 1940.
Sandusky, Ohio - Twenty members of the Dutch freighter PRINS WILLELM II were in the Eire county jail here today after their captain P.G. van der Eijk formally accused them of disobedience and said he feared for his life. William G. Bryany, Netherlands consul at Detroit, charges that the man had been given money by the German consul in Chicago. Alvin F. Weichel, the sailors attorney said that all that the men want is back pay that is due them.
Above photo shows - scene as the twenty Dutch sailors were arrested here yesterday.

Detroit Free Press, July 10th 1940 - Settlement' Near for Dutch Crew U.S.
Expected to Free Sailors and Ship SANDUSKY, O., July 9 Solution of the troubles that beset the homeless little. Dutch freighter, Prins Willem II and her 20 jailed crew members appeared near an end Tuesday. Sheriff William S. Souter, who July 5 seized the vessel and crew on orders of the United States immigration service, said that Capt. C. A. Vander Eyck had received a cablegram from the ship's owners in Rotterdam informing him that the owners had paid the families of the crew their allotments from wages due. This caused Alvin F. Weichel, attorney for the crew suing for back wages, to ask continuance of the hearing Which was scheduled for Tuesday. It was learned that the engines of the freighter are in working condition. With a settlement of the wages approaching and the engines found in running order, indications are that the Federal Government will order Sheriff Souter to release both the ship and crew. - No formal charges have been placed against the Dutch sailors.

Detroit Free Press, July 11th 1940 - US. Will Question 20 Dutch Seamen.
Jeffries Notes Effect of War in Detroit I transportation facilities. Detroit will be sent to Sandusky. O., Thursday to interview 20 members of the Netherlands freighter, Prins Willem II, held in custody there since they allegedly refused to ohey their captain's orders, John L. Zurbrick, district immigration director, said late Wednesday. "If they are not willing to go on with the ship under the captain will ….. tain a orders we shall start deportation proceedings immediately," said Zurbrick. He acted under instructions from Washington officials to whom he has been forwarding daily reports on the ……

The Daily Mail from Hagerstown, Aug 22nd 1940.
Aug. 22 -- Arrest of 12 Dutch sailors from the S. S. Prins Willem II of Rotterdam for alleged mutiny at Sandusky, is focusing attention upon a merchant fleet which for more than 10 years has been bringing cargoes from Europe directly to the American middle west, docking at cities located one- third of the way across the continent from the Atlantic seaboard. Entering the Great Lakes by ascending the St. Lawrence river, almost 100 freighters flying the flags of such maritime nations as Norway, Finland, Great Britain and The Nothcvlarids have discharged and loaded cargoes during a single season, from April to November, at United States ports on the inland seas. Escaped Narvik. In the lives of the men who work these ships across the north Atlantic there is little place now for the exotic, adventure popularly associated with their calling. More frequently their experience is that of danger, suffering arid constant worry about wives and, families in their Invaded homelands.

Thumb Tacks Choice
3 Interned crew members of Prins Willem II. The quiet courage of these men is exemplified. Just one who recently came ashore here limping from wounds received during the battle of Narvik, when a freighter on which he was serving was sunk in that harbor on the coast of Norway above the Arctic Circle. Recounting the naval engagement in, which he, a non-combatant, was shot, the seaman said: "We came into Narvik in ballast. We were going to load cargo there but on April 9 the Germans came in. On the 9th some of the younger men from our ship went ashore and were never heard of again. "Two Norwegian battleships, the Norge and the Eldsvold, were lying In the harbor. They were torpedoed and one German destroyer was sunk. "On the 12th five British airplanes came in and took photographs. ' Next day the battle started. The battle lasted about one hour. I think 11 or 12 ships were sunk altogether. We were hit by two torpedoes. You couldn't see anything for smoke except the Hashes from the guns. It was snowing and blowing most of the time and the noise of the big guns drowned out everything else. Machine gun bullets from low-flying airplanes rattled down on the deck. I got three machine gun bullets. Left Ship "We got off our ship just before she sank in the harbor but we lost everything except our oldest clothes which wo were wearing. Twenty of us went ashore in a lifeboat. There was about six feet of snow on the ground. We left the town, and went up a hill 'til we came to an empty hut that was used in summer by tourists. There was a stove in it so we cut down small trees -and made a good fire that kept us warm. "But after a couple of days I had to have a doctor so three of my shipmates pulled me several miles on a sled to a farmer's house where a nurse dressed my wounds. "We stayed at Narvik for two weeks. Then a Norwegian naval vessel took 13 of us to another port where we joined another freighter. While we were loading cargo there we were attacked by airplanes. They dropped about a dozen bombs and sank the ship I was on and another one. I got away from there and later I joined my present ship".
Of all the foreign vessels coming into the Great Lakes the majority are of Norwegian registry. Almost every one of the tramp steamers is from Norway, and Oslo is the home port of the Fjell line, oldest and largest company regularly engaged in this trade. There are 10 Fjell-ships comparable to canalsize lakers calling at Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee and smaller ports.

Delayed In Ohio.
It is the Oranje line of Rotterdam that operates the Prins Willem II, the steamship whose scheduled departure from Sandusky early last month was delayed after she had loaded a cargo of coal. When part of the crew of tee Prins Willem II refused to sail her to Montreal, where ship and personnel might come under British Authority, they were accused by a Netherlands consul of "mutiny, desertion and treason." The sailors denied the charges, contending that there no longer was a government of their country and that the surrender to Germany released them from all obligation. The men said that their chief desire was to rejoin their families in The Netherlands but that they considered this to be hopeless if they entered the service of Great Britain while their own country was occupied by Nazi troops. The consul eventually reported that 12 of the crew were paid off at Sandusky but were kept in custody pending probable deportation, and that the other eight took the Prins Willem II to Montreal, on July 13th. It is charged that some of these Dutch seamen were influenced by German agents. While the affairs of the Prins Willem II have been attracting international attention, the Oranje Line's new motor ship, the Prins Willem III, has been lying empty at a Chicago wharf awaiting orders.

Bombed, Not Hit
The ship barely escaped the Blitzkrieg of Holland and Belgium, sailing from Antwerp the night before the attack. The captain had orders not to cross the English channel after dark, so he anchored in Flushing Roads, a few miles out of Rotterdam, with 20 other ships waiting to make the crossing. That night all hands were routed out of their bunks when air raiders dropped hundreds of bombs on the unarmed merchantmen. But the Prins Willem III was not hit and next day she was out at sea heading for the St. Lawrence estuary. This attack, however, was responsible for trouble when the ship arrived in Chicago, the crew refusing to sail until the craft was equipped with guns for defense against possible future attacks. There has been no disorder aboard her, but two members of her 21-man crew have deserted and a Canadian pilot taken on at Montreal has been prevented from going ashore because of passport regulations. Until the current season transatlantic-Great Lakes commerce showed an increase every year, but the war has driven most of the ocean tramps from these shipping lanes and only the well-established Fjell line is expected to maintain sailings throughout the present summer.
Gert
- Varen is leven. -
Mijn website https://aa-planadvies.nl/ is helemaal vernieuwd.

Evert Sikkema
Berichten: 3399
Lid geworden op: 31 dec 2004 08:19
Locatie: Noord Holland

Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Evert Sikkema »

Gert, jij hebt je er behoorlijk in verdiept. Bedankt voor jeuitgebreide reactie.
Als ik de berichten uit de Amerikaanse kranten lees, die jij hier geplaatst hebt, springt dit er voor mij uit omtrent de beweegredenen van het niet willen varen:
Vertaald ziet dat er zo uit:
Toen een deel van de bemanning van de Prins Willem II weigerde om het schip naar Montreal te varen, waar de bemanning onder de Britse autoriteiten zou (kunnen) komen te vallen, werden ze door de Nederlandse consul beschuldigd van "muiterij, desertie en verraad". De matrozen ontkenden die beschuldigingen, stelden dat er niet langer sprake was van een Nederlandse regering na de overgave aan Duitsland en dat ze zodoende van alle verplichtingen waren ontslagen. De mannen zeiden dat hun voornaamste wens was om met hun families in Nederland weer herenigd te worden, maar dat ze dit als uitgesloten beschouwden als ze in dienst van Groot-Brittannië zouden komen, terwijl hun eigen land werd bezet door nazi-troepen.

Eigenlijk een duidelijk verhaal.
Weigering om te varen zal in de oorlog wel vaker voor gekomen zijn, vooral als je al het één en ander had meegemaakt, maar wat gebeurde er dan?
In het verhaal van de Prins Willem II wordt gerept over internering, maar was dit dan voor de rest van de oorlog of kwam je op een bepaald moment ook weer vrij en kon je dan doen en laten wat je wilde?
Maar terugkeer naar Nederland zat er, denk ik , niet in.

groeten
Evert Sikkema
As it tij ferrint, moat men de beakens fersette.

p.arendz
Berichten: 1104
Lid geworden op: 01 mar 2005 09:05
Locatie: groningerland

Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door p.arendz »

Een foto van de arrestatie op 5 juli 1940
& het bijbehorende bericht ( zoals ook al door Gert aangehaald )
Vriendelijke groet,
---Peeter.
arrestatie_19400705.jpg
arrestatie_19400705.jpg (84.26 KiB) 1068 keer bekeken
arrestatiebericht.jpg
arrestatiebericht.jpg (61.69 KiB) 1068 keer bekeken

Gert Schouwstra
Berichten: 3980
Lid geworden op: 28 okt 2006 21:24
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Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Gert Schouwstra »

En ik vond nog een paar artikelen, waaronder een interview met de kapitein:

The Sandusky Register, June 21, 1940 CAPTAIN DISCUSSES WAR. Notarians Hear Master of Prins Willem II.

Captain C.A. van der Eyck, master of the Dutch freighter Prins Willem II, detained here, told members of the notary club at this week's luncheon meeting at Hotel Regis that Holland will exist as long as she has a single colony left on which to conduct a government. "Queen Wllhelmina and the government is now giving orders to me, instead of the company which owned the Prins Willem II before she was detained in this country, as Holland fell to Germany," Captain Van der Eyck said. "The ship is now considered government property and will not be interned, nor will the crew as long as they remain with the ship," the sturdy sea-going captain stated. "Holland fought Spain for 80 years and she will resist any enemy as long as there is an ounce of breath In the noble Dutch," Captain Van der Eyck declared. "The Germans are far from having a clear cut victory. Winter should bring many advantages for the allies. With the aid of the United States in furnishing materials the Allies should rally this winter when the navies of the Allies should be able to strike effective blows at the Axis powers, which are largely dependent on land forces, that can do little In severe winter weather," he said. "As I am of a Netherlands steamer you want to hear of course something of my country. I wish I could. It would mean that we on board of the Willem II should know how things are now. Over there, but of our nice and peaceful country there is nothing to say at the present. To me that quietness seems almost like something holy, they do not like to speak, for it would break the tribute of honor they mean to give by being quiet and in devotion to all the bravo soldiers and civilians that fell for their country. 'The quietness, however, has not such a good reason as wo hope it could be. We know nothing of Holland after the surrender. There is no communication with it in any way. It sometimes gives me the feeling our invaders are afraid for the world's critique for what they have done to our families, our friends, our homes and all that was dear to us. We will only hear from them after a long time, after they have been through the mill of the nationalists as it is thought by our Invaders. Then they will speak as THEY wanted THEM to speak, and our invaders hope in the meantime that their grievances will be somewhat forgotten as the time goes by. Things will by that time have been somewhat cleared up so the bad impression will be weakened. It is however, not possible for the millions of Hollanders who were no traitors to their country to forget so easy. They had too good an example on their forefathers who fought 80 years against the Spaniards. "All by all we are now here in the safe port of Sandusky and find a peaceful place for the time being. The people here are very nice to us and I want to give them credit. Now with their new friends their tension will be eased, for you know what it means to all of us. The uncertainly of how it will be at home. Will we still have our family alive, will we have our … houses, where will our small savings be which we gathered together cent by cent, "We work day and night and risk our lives at sea in many a storm. No place to go, no country of Holland to ourselves. But on this side of the ocean far from home we have friends, and what generous friends, and we are making more friends every day, for it is only friendship that, counts in life. I take this opportunity to thank the American Red Cross for all they do for us. At Chicago I went to them and found them willing to go through all the trouble in trying to find out what really has happened to all of our families at home. It is a very great work and I have not the slightest idea how they do it, as l think what an enormous work they have already on their shoulders with the wounded on the fields. It is a wonderful work, I hope they have success in locating our families!. But if they have no success, I and all the crew will be thankful just the same. "In the meantime than, the manager of the dock…. I thank the port authorities lo letting me have such a fine place alongside their dock for which them we have to pay no dock charge. Our owners will very much appreciate that and I am sure that after the war the making of ad the new ….. here will not miss its good effect on business matters. "Now my best luck to the invited ……….. "

The Sandusky Register, July 11, 1940 Negotiations Go On For Release Of Other Members.
Franz Heydema, chief engineer of the attacked Netherlands freighter Prins Willem II, who has been in the Erie county jail since last Friday, with 19 other crew members, was released last night. He returned to the ship with Captain C. A. Van der Eyck. He is the first of the crew to be released. He had been segregated from the others during his stay in the jail. Engine inspector A. Haman, chief engineer of the giant Dutch liner Nieuw Amsterdam, now interned in New York City, disclosed last night that the Prins Willem II is In running order and in perfect condition. He with his first assistant. A. Talmon inspected the vessel yesterday. They expect to leave here today or Friday. Attorney Alvin F. Weichel last night continued negotiations with the Netherlands Shipping Committee and owners of the Oranje Lines, operators of the boat, for settlement of the wage dispute. Haman said the boat would probably get steam up sometime today. He added further that he found no engine parts missing. Possibilities of the Prins Willem II clearing late this week if a settlement is reached were seen last night.

The Sandusky Star, July,13, 1940 Prins Willem II Expected To Sail Next Wednesday.
By Wednesday of next week the Prins Willem II expects to leave Sandusky and head out into Lake Erie for its long delayed trip to Montreal, (Captain C. A. Van der Eyk said today. Accompanying the ship as a guest of the officers will be Sheriff W. S. Souter who was responsible for bringing to an end the series of troubles that kept the freighter in port since June 7.
Gert
- Varen is leven. -
Mijn website https://aa-planadvies.nl/ is helemaal vernieuwd.

Theo Horsten
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Lid geworden op: 30 dec 2004 16:14
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Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Theo Horsten »

------------
Graag zou ik hier uitgebreid op in willen gaan, maar dat is me op dit moment en ook in de komende weken volstrekt onmogelijk en daarom kan ik alleen maar zeggen dat alle antwoorden op deze vragen te vinden zijn in het als boek verschenen proefschrift van mr. AnneMarie Smit Varen, vechten of berechten. Klikken op de link brengt je alleen naar de googleresultaten. Het boek is als pdf te downloaden, maar kijk uit: mijn zeer goede beveiliging weigert dat te doen omdat die site niet kosher zou zijn.Zelf kocht ik het boek in 2008, maar het is nog volop verkrijgbaar. Mogelijk heeft de bibliotheek het ook wel in huis.
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Evert Sikkema
Berichten: 3399
Lid geworden op: 31 dec 2004 08:19
Locatie: Noord Holland

Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Evert Sikkema »

Op aanraden vanTheo heb ik het boek "Varen, vechten of berechten" er even bij gepakt. Het voert te ver, lijkt mij, om heel uitvoerig op de materie in te gaan want dan zou je het hele boek moeten doorworstelen.
Maar in een paar korte zinnen valt er wel iets over te zeggen.
Na het uitbreken van de oorlog waren zeelieden feitelijk en na de totstandkoming van het Koninklijk Besluit A 5 van 5 juni 1940 verplicht dienst te doen en te blijven doen aan boord van Nederlandse zeeschepen.
In 1942 kwam er een nieuw Koninklijk Besluit C 19 dat de vaarplicht gedetailleerder regelde.
Straffen werden opgelegd door de rechtbank of de kantonrechter.
De straffen varieerden van een (voorwaardelijke) geldboetes tot (voorwaardelijke) gevangenisstraffen.
Het geval met de Prins Willem II komt in het boek niet ter sprake.
Al zoekend op internet naar "Verplicht om te varen in de oorlog" kwam ik dit tegen (met 9 interviews, waarvan 8 toegangkelijk): https://getuigenverhalen.nl/projecten/ve ... -vaderland.
groeten
Evert Sikkema
As it tij ferrint, moat men de beakens fersette.

Zeepaardje
Berichten: 246
Lid geworden op: 01 mar 2017 17:15

Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Zeepaardje »

Beste mensen,
Sinds enige tijd ik bezig ben om de schepen van Buisman te inventariseren en de vaarschema's te achterhalen.
(zie mijn forum : N.V. Kustvaart Onderneming Zwartsluis).
De schepen Frederik, Rolf en Servus hebben tijdens WWII gevaren onder gezag van: Commissie voor Aangehouden Lading / Netherlands Shipping and Trading Committee (COVAL / NSTC).
Bij het Nationaal Archief in Den Haag is inzage te krijgen van diverse stukken betreffende voornoemde schepen.

Mijn vraag aan u is deze:
Hoe, en door wie, werden de gezinnen van de opvarenden voorzien van geld?
De mannen moesten verplicht blijven varen en Nederland was bezet.
Hoe moesten die gezinnen dan zien rond te komen?
Weet iemand van u hoe dat geregeld werd?

Mvg. Johan (Zeepaardje).

Evert Sikkema
Berichten: 3399
Lid geworden op: 31 dec 2004 08:19
Locatie: Noord Holland

Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Evert Sikkema »

Johan, ik denk dat je hier in het kort een goed overzicht kunt krijgen hoe zeemansgezinnen in de oorlog van inkomen werden voorzien:
https://www.go2war2.nl/artikel/2609/Hall ... htm?page=4

groeten
Evert Sikkema
As it tij ferrint, moat men de beakens fersette.

Zeepaardje
Berichten: 246
Lid geworden op: 01 mar 2017 17:15

Re: Zeevarenden in oorlogstijd.

Bericht door Zeepaardje »

Evert,
Hartelijk dank voor je antwoord op mijn vraag. Die site is voor mij een eye-opener.
Een stukje geschiedenis wat ik ga meenemen bij de inventarisatie van de Buisman-vloot.
Het is vaak moeilijk om informatie over dit soort zaken te verkrijgen.
Mijn vader bracht in Medemblik tijdens WWII, geld naar gezinnen van spoorwegstakers.
Is door een inwendige waarschuwing niet in de val gelopen bij een razzia.
Maar heeft ons daar pas aan het eind van zijn leven iets over verteld.
Hij leed toen al aan afasie na een CVA en zodoende kennen wij alleen wat flarden van het eigenlijke verhaal.
In ieder geval nogmaals dank voor je snelle reactie.

Mvg. Johan.



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